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Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

dfwskier
Rising Star

@chgoflyer wrote:

As I posted earlier, political and financial reasons preclude Southwest from grounding their 737 MAX aircraft. As one of Boeing's top customers and the carrier with the largest number of MAX aircraft on order, they need to protect that investment and their commitment to the 737 in general, and make a clear statement that they see no safety issues with the MAX. So unless the FAA acts (which is also unlikely) Southwest won't ground the planes.

 

 I have to take exception to that. If Southwest had any valid reason to ground the aircraft, it would do so. No company will intentionally fly unsafe aircraft. Same with the FAA. The company has data from it's 41000+ Max flights, so it has a pretty good idea of how the plane operates. It's pilots say the aircraft is safe. It's pilots say they have no problems putting their own loved ones on the aircraft. There has to be a valid identifiable reason to ground aircraft. At this point no such thing exists.

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

 


@dfwskier wrote:

@chgoflyer wrote:

As I posted earlier, political and financial reasons preclude Southwest from grounding their 737 MAX aircraft. As one of Boeing's top customers and the carrier with the largest number of MAX aircraft on order, they need to protect that investment and their commitment to the 737 in general, and make a clear statement that they see no safety issues with the MAX. So unless the FAA acts (which is also unlikely) Southwest won't ground the planes.

 

 I have to take exception to that. If Southwest had any valid reason to ground the aircraft, it would do so. No company will intentionally fly unsafe aircraft. Same with the FAA. The company has data from it's 41000+ Max flights, so it has a pretty good idea of how the plane operates. It's pilots say the aircraft is safe. It's pilots say they have no problems putting their own loved ones on the aircraft. There has to be a valid identifiable reason to ground aircraft. At this point no such thing exists.


 

Clearly, you and I disagree. Smiley Wink

 

I think it's absolutely prudent to -- at least -- ground the aircraft until the FAA mandated updates to the systems that caused the LionAir crash are implemented. The FAA has indicated that there is a problem with the MCAS system, and that those problems require mandatory repair. I think that's a "valid identifiable reason."

 

And I stand by my my opinion regarding the reasons the FAA and US companies haven't grounded the planes while most of the rest of the world has. I respect that your opinion differs.

 

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

dfwskier
Rising Star

@chgoflyer wrote:

 


@dfwskier wrote:

@

.

 

 I have to take exception to that. If Southwest had any valid reason to ground the aircraft, it would do so. No company will intentionally fly unsafe aircraft. Same with the FAA. The company has data from it's 41000+ Max flights, so it has a pretty good idea of how the plane operates. It's pilots say the aircraft is safe. It's pilots say they have no problems putting their own loved ones on the aircraft. There has to be a valid identifiable reason to ground aircraft. At this point no such thing exists.


 

Clearly, you and I disagree. Smiley Wink

 

I think it's absolutely prudent to -- at least -- ground the aircraft until the FAA mandated updates to the systems that caused the LionAir crash are implemented. The FAA has indicated that there is a problem with the MCAS system, and that those problems require mandatory repair. I think that's a "valid identifiable reason."

 

And I stand by my my opinion regarding the reasons the FAA and US companies haven't grounded the planes while most of the rest of the world has. I respect that your opinion differs.

 


 Here's why I said what I said. What do think woud happen to Southwest - the entire company--

if it could be proven that Southwest knew about a serious safety defect that  caused the crash of a Southwest plane? Bankruptcy - out of business are the terms that come to mind. You don't risk that for profit.

 

and SWAPA is on record about the company response to the Indonesian crash:

 

"We now have Extended Envelope Training (EET) in addition to our regular annual training and since
SWAPA and others have brought awareness to the MCAS issue, we have additional resources to
successfully deal with either a legitimate MCAS triggered event or a faulty triggered MCAS event.


SWAPA also has pushed hard for Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor displays to be put on all our aircraft
and those are now being implemented into the fleet. All of these tools, in addition to SWAPA Pilots
having the most experience on 737s in the industry, give me no pause that not only are our aircraft
safe, but you are the safest 737 operators in the sky."

 

Our basic disagreement is that you want to ground based on inuendo -- I want to ground if there are facts that warrant grounding. So far there are none.

 

Why don't you read what the FAA did in response to USAIr 427 crash of 25 years ago, It was a methodol ical FACT FINDING mission that took five years.

 

 https://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/probable-cause-29233123/?page=1

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

@dfwskier wrote:



Our basic disagreement is that you want to ground based on inuendo -- I want to ground if there are facts that warrant grounding. So far there are none.

 


 

Please know that I do completely understand why you believe what you believe. However, I think the statement above shows that you don't understand what it is I'm saying. Smiley Wink

 

The FAA has identified a problem with MAX aircraft. One that requires mandatory changes to the plane's software, maintenance and pilot training. This is not "inuendo." These are facts.

 

My opinion is that it would be prudent to ground the planes until those mandatory changes are implemented.

 

Our opinions differ. But please don't denegrate the reasoning behind mine, as I would never do the same to yours. Smiley Wink

 

 

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

dfwskier
Rising Star

@chgoflyer wrote:

@dfwskier wrote:



Our basic disagreement is that you want to ground based on inuendo -- I want to ground if there are facts that warrant grounding. So far there are none.

 


 

Please know that I do completely understand why you believe what you believe. However, I think the statement above shows that you don't understand what it is I'm saying. Smiley Wink

 

The FAA has identified a problem with MAX aircraft. One that requires mandatory changes to the plane's software, maintenance and pilot training. This is not "inuendo." These are facts.

 

My opinion is that it would be prudent to ground the planes until those mandatory changes are implemented.

 

Our opinions differ. But please don't denegrate the reasoning behind mine, as I would never do the same to yours. Smiley Wink

 

 


Perhaps you should reread the SWAPA release again.

 

The company HAS implemented training

The copany's pilot's say they are prepared for any MCAS scenrio

The company is iinstalling AOA indicators (faulty AOA is suspected as cause of Indonesian crash)

 

If those are all true, there is no reason to ground the MAXs - except emotion.

 

"We now have Extended Envelope Training (EET) in addition to our regular annual training and since
SWAPA and others have brought awareness to the MCAS issue, we have additional resources to
successfully deal with either a legitimate MCAS triggered event or a faulty triggered MCAS event.
 
SWAPA also has pushed hard for Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor displays to be put on all our aircraft
and those are now being implemented into the fleet. All of these tools, in addition to SWAPA Pilots
having the most experience on 737s in the industry, give me no pause that not only are our aircraft
safe, but you are the safest 737 operators in the sky. "

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

dfwskier
Rising Star

A review by FAA has found that there is no basis to ground the 737 Max.

The FAA also stated that other civil aviation authorities have not provided data that would warrant action at this time.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/12/faa-adm ... craft.html

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Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

LindseyD
Retired Community Manager

Moderator here. Thank you for bringing your perspectives to the Southwest Community and helping us maintain a respectful tone around this topic. As several of our Community Champions have noted, this is a peer-to-peer discussion forum. Our primary purpose here is to host conversations and share travel knowledge.

 

We are fielding some questions from Customers asking if their flight will be operated by the Boeing 737 MAX 8, and our Customer Relations Team is responding to these Customers individually, emphasizing our friendly no-change fee policy. If you'd like to talk to us about an upcoming reservation that you have, the quickest way to get in touch is through Twitter (@Southwestair). Our Representatives are standing by to work with you. 

 

 

 

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

@dfwskier wrote:


Perhaps you should reread the SWAPA release again.

 

The company HAS implemented training

The copany's pilot's say they are prepared for any MCAS scenrio

The company is iinstalling AOA indicators (faulty AOA is suspected as cause of Indonesian crash)

 

If those are all true, there is no reason to ground the MAXs - except emotion.

 

 

As I've stated multiple times, my opinion is based on the FAA mandate that repairs to the aircraft are needed. These repairs are not the same as the actions Southwest has taken -- the FAA hasn't even finished their mandate announcement and Boeing hasn't yet issued the updates (expected in April), so it remains unknown exactly what they will entail. I'm encouraged that Southwest has taken independent action on it's own fleet, but that does not satisfy the upcoming FAA mandate.

 

Please keep in mind that these actions are all directed by information obtained from the LionAir crash, and the belief that the MCAS system and AOA sensor was the cause. Yet pilots have reported other nose-down issues that appear to be unrelated. And now a second catastrophic crash has occured, with striking similarities, but it's unclear for now if the same systems are responsible. The issues could in fact be larger than the MCAS system, something completely different, or more complicated than originally thought. So individual carrier efforts at remediation of what they suspect the issue is may not be enough to protect against an unanticipated catastrophic event.

 

Until we know more I remain of the opinion that the planes should be grounded, and since there are mandated repairs on the horizon I think a deadline of their completion is prudent.

 

This is my opinion, and it's not based on "emotion." Please respect mine as I have respected yours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

dfwskier
Rising Star

@chgoflyer wrote:

@dfwskier wrote:


Perhaps you should reread the SWAPA release again.

 

The company HAS implemented training

The copany's pilot's say they are prepared for any MCAS scenrio

The company is iinstalling AOA indicators (faulty AOA is suspected as cause of Indonesian crash)

 

If those are all true, there is no reason to ground the MAXs - except emotion.

 

 

As I've stated multiple times, my opinion is based on the FAA mandate that repairs to the aircraft are needed.  

 

Repairs to be done by the end of April. So FAA is saying the aircraft are safe and in no need of IMMEDIATE repair. The FAA has not said "fix it now or don't fly it"

Re: Your failure to act on the Boeing 737 8 MAX

chgoflyer
Top Contributor

@dfwskier wrote:

@chgoflyer wrote:

@dfwskier wrote:


Perhaps you should reread the SWAPA release again.

 

The company HAS implemented training

The copany's pilot's say they are prepared for any MCAS scenrio

The company is iinstalling AOA indicators (faulty AOA is suspected as cause of Indonesian crash)

 

If those are all true, there is no reason to ground the MAXs - except emotion.

 

 

As I've stated multiple times, my opinion is based on the FAA mandate that repairs to the aircraft are needed.  

 

Repairs to be done by the end of April. So FAA is saying the aircraft are safe and in no need of IMMEDIATE repair. The FAA has not said "fix it now or don't fly it"


 

 

Actually the mandate will be released by April, but it's unclear what the deadline for repairs will be. 

 

I do, of course, understand that the FAA isn't calling for grounding. That's the whole point of the controversy. Smiley Wink 

 

I think we're just talking in circles now, so until new information is available I see no need to continue restating my position.